Lee Jae-myung's ruling seen by a judge-turned-lawyer? What's important is perjury.

◆ [YTN Radio SHINYUL's news]
■ Broadcasting: FM 94.5 (17:00-19:00)
■ Air date: November 14, 2024 (Thursday)
■ Proceedings: Shin Yul, Professor of Political Science and Diplomacy at Myongji University
■ Dialogue: Lawyer Jeon Sang-beom, lawyer Seol Ju-wan

* The text below may differ from the actual broadcast content, so please check the broadcast for more accurate information.

Seol Joo-wan
- Kim Hye-kyung's first trial ruling clearly reveals the facts
- Lee Jae-myung, first trial of violation of the election law..Estimated to be between 1.5 million won and 2 million won
- Impeachment of Judge? Shaking the constitutional system...You need the trust of the judiciary.
Jeon Sang-beom
- Kim Hye-kyung's first trial ruling, Lee Jae-myung's spouse 'elector'
- Kim Hye-kyung, it is still difficult to campaign even if 1.3 million won is submitted to the appeals court
- Lee Jae-myung, charges of perjury teacher..The judiciary will be severely disciplined for obstructing justice.
◆ Shin Yul: Shin Yul's news head-to-head match begins part 4. Thursday's 4th Division Justice League. But the lawyers for the two who are out here are not wearing masks, but anyway, it's the Justice League. It's a time to think about the law and justice of our society. There are two lawyers. Let me introduce them one by one. First, lawyer Jeon Sang-beom is here.

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: Hello, I'm lawyer Jeon Sang-beom.

◆ Shin Yul: And lawyer Seol Joo-wan. Please come in.

■ Seol Ju-wan: Yes, hello.

◆ Shin Yul: But today Kim Hye-kyung is the wife of CEO Lee Jae-myung. Kim Hye-kyung was sentenced to 1.5 million won. What does this mean? Let's hear from lawyer Seol first.

■ Seol Ju-wan: The part that's been denying, so it's an act of donation. So, the donation was not for the general public, but during the presidential election at the time, he met the spouses of lawmakers and bought a meal. But I bought the meal fee, and that's why I used the Gyeonggi-do corporate card again. So now, it's a case of violation of the Public Official Election Act in relation to that, and I think today's first trial ruling revealed the facts a little clearly. Of course, Kim Hye-kyung's side is now expressing its intention to appeal because it is a judgment based on speculation, but after listening to the entire ruling, the judge refuted the claims made by Kim Hye-kyung one by one. This is the case. So, Kim Hye-kyung's side is probably saying that the main purpose of the appeal today is that there is no direct evidence, as the presiding judge said in the first trial, was probably judged only by circumstantial evidence. He said he would probably fight more at the appeal trial with this. However, the problem with the fact that Kim Hye-kyung bought it from her spouses at the time was that one of the lawmaker's spouses came out as a witness, but he couldn't clearly prove it. Rather, there were testimonies such as testimonies that the presiding judge was convinced that he had just bought it from a certain Kim Hye-kyung's side. That's why there are two issues for me in today's trial. One is that Kim Hye-kyung has been found guilty of some kind of donation, and the other is the impact. What kind of impact will happen after this trial is that I once again confirmed my relationship with Mr. Bae at today's trial.

◆ Shin Yul: Secretary?

■ Seol Ju-wan: That's right. He's called the secretary of performance. But about this person, about the part that was used by the Gyeonggi-do corporation, is it August and July? Representative Lee Jae-myung and Kim Hye-kyung were summoned by the Suwon District Prosecutors' Office, but only Kim Hye-kyung was present for a brief investigation, and representative Lee Jae-myung is not present yet, so the prosecution will probably go to indictment without summoning him, but I think the case will be linked to this case, so the prosecution will probably lead to additional prosecution.

◆ Sin Yul: How do you watch it?

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: You've said everything now, so I'm going to say it from the judge's point of view.

◆ Shin Yul: Because you were a judge,

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: If you don't have direct evidence, you have no direct evidence, especially on the subjective part of it, unless the person confesses. It's not like you can open your mind, and it can be a subjective part in a sense that it's complicit. Especially in the case of sequential public offerings, I know that he is donating. Nevertheless, when you are under your own command and supervision and you do not stop it, you can admit sequential conspiracy. So, of course, you don't confess when you look at the various circumstances. Based on this situation, sufficiently subjective conspiracy can be admitted. And I think this ruling is a representative ruling against him, and now I've thought about the meaning of the fine of 1.5 million won. The meaning of the fine of 1.5 million won is that if the fine is now 3 million won,

◆ Synthesis:
for spouse
◇ Jeon Sang-beom: If 3 million won comes out, the spouse who runs for that spouse loses his job in the election. But the election is already over. The fine of 300 doesn't mean much because it's not a matter of the election. And it is meaningful if the fine is more than 1 million won. Once the fine is more than 1 million won, the spouse Kim Hye-kyung cannot run, but she cannot campaign beyond that. So, when representative Lee Jae-myung runs in a certain election later, his spouse cannot stand next to him and appeal for support. And now the public's perception is very different. What is expressed in the Public Official Election Act is now called an election criminal. So, the spouse is an elector, and now exactly, in Article 18, Paragraph 1, No. 3, the elector appears. Then that's how the people would perceive it. Representative Lee Jae-myung's spouse is an elector. When he goes around with such a person, he thinks about what the people will think. Perhaps judges also thought about this when thinking about whether it was 1 million won or 1.5 million won. And what judges hate the most about elections or politics is the first thing to receive back money. And the second act of donating. So I think that's why the big trend of judges was revealed here.

■ Seol Ju-wan: But right now, Mrs. Kim Gun-hee is also

◆ Shin Yul: If you go up to the 2nd trial, won't you get cut off?

■ Seol Ju-wan: Kim Gun-hee was never active during the presidential election. I've never done any official activities as a spouse, except for an apology that officially said I'll only work hard on the internal affairs at the end of December. That's why First Lady Kim Gun-hee doesn't it matter if First Lady Kim Hye-kyung runs in the next presidential election?

◆ Shin Yul: But if I appeal, I'll be cut off, right?

■ But shouldn't there be a change now?

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: This is also what judges are reluctant to do these days. It's very burdensome to cut it without any change in circumstances in the first and second trials. In the past, I took it as to what theory was about sentencing, so I took it as to whether it was just 150 or 120. In the past, there was a consensus that if it was within the band range, the appeals court should not change the first trial. So it's going to be hard to change it easily. However, in order to make a change of circumstances, confession is made. In terms of confessing and reflecting, if you cut about 200,000 won and come out to 1.3 million won, I think that's how much I can't still campaign.

◆ Shin Yul: I'm learning a lot today. at first, on a band like this,

■ Seol Ju-wan: The lawyer was a judge, so I think he's telling us the recent trend. In the past, lawyers usually think that 150 in the first trial is a success. In the case of election law cases, the reason is how to reduce the amount a little after the second trial. But even then, I confess for any reason. In the case of my acknowledgement of appealing for leniency and then asking a court to give certain leniency and acting as a candidate so that I can campaign next, I think you're talking about a recent trend in the court.

◆ Shin Yul: Now I'm going to ask you a question that I'm most curious about. Tomorrow. The first trial of the election law against representative Lee Jae-myung is scheduled. What do you expect?

■ Seol Ju-wan: I know. I think we'll be able to talk about it again next week.

◆ Shin Yul: Then we have to talk about perjury now.

■ Seol Ju-wan: I don't know. Looking at some of the contents so far, I think it will be decided between 1.5 million won and 2 million won. If you say you're guilty, that's why it's two issues. So, did you know or not about the late Kim Moon-ki, and one part of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport is whether the 4th phase of the upward movement was threatened by the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport. When Kim Moon-ki and his wife legally judged, they thought it was a little difficult because it was just a matter of their own memory, but Baekhyun-dong had an opponent. First of all, it was objectively revealed that there was nothing that could be seen as intimidation by looking at any testimony from the officials of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport and the employees who were in charge of this at the time at Seongnam City Hall. Then there is an incident linked to this case. There's a case of Kim In-seop.

◆ Shin Yul: Aren't you in custody right now?

■ Seol Ju-wan: He was sentenced to five years in prison and even the appeals court. Then, the Supreme Court appeal has been filed, and the factual fact-finding part of the case has been confirmed in the case that Kim In-seop was close to Seongnam Mayor Lee Jae-myung and was lobbied for some permission. So, if it is connected to the case, I think it would be difficult to be innocent of Baekhyun-dong. If so, the question of sentencing remains, and the most important thing is whether it is more than 1 million won or less. If he is found guilty, the court can think about various things. Kim Hye-kyung's case is 1.5 million won today, but I think some charges are bigger, so wouldn't it be between 1.5 million won and 2 million won? But in the first trial, I think it will be like that, but if I do the second and third trials until the final trial, I think there will be no loss of the right to run for election.

◆ Sin-ryul: The more you go up, the more you cut it. But they said this. In the case of lawmaker Seo Young-kyo, who served as the supreme council member of the Democratic Party, this is the area of recognition. Since it is an area of perception, of course, this is bound to be innocent. In other words, you may not remember that. What is it about that lawmaker Seo Young-kyo? The National Audit Office also asks. The court administration is said to be the area of recognition by saying, "I don't know who I know, I don't know, I don't remember this person." Second, he claimed that he was pressured by the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport, which is also a subjective area. How do you see that this is pressure or not?

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: First of all, I told you that I thought a lot about whether I was guilty or not. If I think about it, the judge in charge will also think about it. So, it should be true that false facts are actually true, but the typical thing is to make false statements about positively revealed facts such as jobs and hometowns. But now, we can share some facts. What I said earlier is an objective fact, and I think subjective facts are now possible. It became the fact that I expressed my own subjective domain by expressing my own mind that I knew or I was under pressure. That's how I see it, so first of all, I think there's a greater chance of guilt when it comes to guilt or innocence. Now, it's just that there's a point you said earlier. It's my subjective domain. Why are you intervening?
◆ Shin Yul: When a person says something, the person who takes it as pressure

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: When you said you actually took it under pressure, but you can lie when it's not pressure. If so, I think I falsely stated a subjective fact. However, there is this when we talk about sentencing with judges. If you talk about things that don't even have a choice, sentencing goes up. But if you deny it while saying something that would make you really deaf, your sentence goes down. But this is something that is worth listening to. First of all, I don't think it will exceed 1 million won. I think 80 to 90 will come out, and there's one more thing. First of all, if you deprive the right to run for election, if you deprive the representative Lee Jae-myung of the right to run for election, you will actively intervene in politics. In the current political history of Korea, a person who is quite likely to be the next presidential candidate is deprived of the right to run for election by false information. That means the judge changes the trend. But I feel a lot of pressure about this. In particular, if the representative Lee Jae-myung is clearly arrested last time, he can be arrested, but if the flow of funds is not clear, it is very burdensome to actively arrest him and change the flow of politics. Now, the second reason and the third reason is that if you are deprived of your right to run for election this time, of course, it should be confirmed, but the Democratic Party received election expenses during the presidential election. It's 40 billion won. So now we have to return more than 40 billion of that compensated election cost. This is also a very burdensome area, so I think it will not be deprived of the right to run for election.

◆ Shin Yul: But to put it simply, 43 billion won means that you have to throw up, but there are a lot of politicians who don't throw up.

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: This is now Dangi

◆ Sin-ryul: I'm not sure about sugar. Anyway, isn't it because of the sweetness?

■ Seol Ju-wan: But it's probably enforceable, so I think it's enforceable because the party's assets are understood. In the case of ordinary individuals, for example, it is a little difficult to execute without concealing funds or property in this person's name, but we have a company. Since Yeouido is the company, it can be a little realistic in that area. But what I've been hearing at the court for the past few days is that the atmosphere at the court is quite burdensome, as lawyer Jeon Sang-beom said earlier, so there are a lot of things that say that the loss of the right to run for election may not come out.

◆ Shin-ryul: If we follow that logic, we will consider all of those points in the remaining trials and

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: That is a bit different. Perjury teachers are a little different. In fact, I tilted my head to the education world, thinking that this could be true about false facts. But in the case of perjury teachers, if they are found guilty, they now hate to disturb the order of the court, just as the judges hate taking back money and donating. Judges are strictly disciplining perjury or acts that interfere with the judicial order of false accusations. Then this is a bit of a different problem.

◆ Sin Yul: It's a different matter. This perjury teacher doesn't have a fine, does he?

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: No, there is a fine. There are fines, so sometimes they are fined. He said that it didn't affect the trial or that it was right for objective facts. Nevertheless, if it goes against your memory, it becomes perjury. In that case, you'll be fined. But I think this is about the suspended sentence of a prison sentence. Because they keep telling me to remember what I don't remember. Isn't this right? That's how they induce memories. It's very aggressive, and judges can hate it a lot. It is one of the typical crimes that must be strictly punished for perjury.

■ Seol Ju-wan: So let's say that you delete the name Lee Jae-myung and if you put out a question about perjury teachers like all legal professionals, for example, lawyers. In this and that case, when A did this, and called it a perjury teacher, he usually saw his own experience, defense experience, and everything, and if a brother was innocent once, guilty twice, for example, what would happen to him? If you say Hong Gil-dong, who just doesn't know anyone, not the real CEO Lee Jae-myung, I think most of them were sentenced to prison. So this prison sentence was the result of most of the cases I've experienced in my defense so far, including probation. However, representative Lee Jae-myung is also actively defending now, and anyway, he is presenting his summary of his argument, so I don't know how the court will judge it.

◆ Shin Yul: But what I actually think is that if you look at the Democratic Party's movements right now, I feel like I care more about the perjury teacher issue. So, we don't talk much about election law violations, but we mention the perjury teacher very often. That's why I think I'm more concerned about this part. I made this assumption. This is my guess, but

■ Seol Ju-wan: Because there's direct evidence. When it comes to that transcript, there is a direct transcript of the voice of CEO Lee Jae-myung as it is, so I can't do anything about it.

◆ Sin Yul: But I only heard the first 7 minutes of editing. But I heard it all after 30 minutes.

■ Seol Ju-wan: I've heard all of them.

◆ Shin Yul: So then this and that is the 25th.

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: That's right. It's Monday.

◆ Sin Yul: It's Monday. So, is this Monday? 25th? If I say the date, how can the day come out like that?

■ Seol Ju-wan: I usually remember when I have a trial schedule.

◆ Shin-yul: I see, but I think that the Democratic Party of Korea is not the fate of the Democratic Party of Korea, and if you say that you are innocent, you will strengthen the rental offensive with wings, and if you say that you are guilty, look. What's interesting is that the prosecution keeps talking about the prosecution's dictatorship with the prosecution's credit, but this is the judiciary's judgment. But why are you talking about the prosecution?

■ Seol Ju-wan: If you start blaming the judiciary like this

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: What I'm worried about now is that there were talks about objecting to the trial during Governor Kim Kyung-soo. But now, I really don't think we should go one step further and impeach the judge who ruled.

◆ Sin Yul: That's not true. the real

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: What kind of thing is that our side is always innocent and the other side is always guilty? I really don't think that's true.

◆ Sin Yul: That's right. No, challenging the authority of the judiciary is a huge blow to the rule of law as a whole.
■ Seol Ju-wan: I think it's shaking the constitutional system. Isn't there a political solution to things like things that are basically done in all political spheres? But now, if you shake the judicial system, who follows the law if there is no trust in the judiciary? There is no need to follow the law. You just have to stand behind someone with a loud voice and tell this person to speak up like this.

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: You're very straight-minded, so he makes this argument again. It's not power unless it's elected power.

◆ Shin Yul: I think that's the most

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: That's a dangerous idea. Judges, you're not elected, so it's a phrase you always use when you don't like why we should follow your ruling.

◆ Sin-ryul: No, that's not to say that any elected power can do anything.

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: No.

◆ Sin-ryul: It's difficult to interpret the meaning of election in that way. Elections are also elected under legal legitimacy, so this is the establishment of that authority.

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: There is a judiciary within the constitutional system.

■ Seol Ju-wan: No, Hitler is a power elected by law by election. So do you think Hitler is justified in doing it? History doesn't think so.

◆ Sin Yul: That's right. So Hitler is now the last prime minister of the Weimar Republic, when he becomes prime minister. There's a process. That became the second party. It became Weimar's second party, and at that time, Hitler's followers were in trouble on the streets.

■ Seol Ju-wan: That's right.

◆ Shin-yul: That's how people break down and cause problems. I thought it would be a little bit like this to make this a prime minister, so the prime minister at the time persuaded the president to tell him to quit and let this person do it. But as soon as it happened, he said that he would manage everything in our parliament, and the so-called Third Reich was formed. That's right. I don't think being elected is that important to me. Then all civil servants should be elected. Civil servants are not elected powers, so why would they do that to us?

■ Seol Ju-wan: I think if politicians, whether it's the people's power or the Democratic Party, usually come out against them when the results of the trial come out, they think they are innocent in the people's court. I think it's just a complaint, but the Korean judicial system has not been kept until now, hasn't it? They were all accepting it, so I think Lee Jae-myung's trial still has a long way to go before the presidential election.Ma is very interested in the election results, but sometimes I think he is a little tired. Like this, we're like

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: That's right. This ends a little faster. How many years has this been like this?

■ Seol Ju-wan: I'm a little tired of whether I'm going to do it like this every time because other trials will continue in the future.

◆ Shin Yul: For me. When you look at politics these days, only two people's names come out. First Lady Kim Gun-hee and Representative Lee Jae-myung

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: But a new name came out today. Kim Hye-kyung.

◆ Shin Yul: That's right. But today, the two of you are not the only ones who are important in politics. Our lives are important, but these days, I just talk about it all the time, so I actually have to pick a news item, but there's a limit. It's really hard to talk and talk and talk and talk. I need to become more diverse. Oh, I'll stop here today's two of you.

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: It's already been like that.

◆ Shin Yul: Thank you. Thank you.

◇ Jeon Sang-beom: Thank you.

◆ Shin Yul: So far, we've been with lawyer Jeon Sang-beom and lawyer Seol Ju-wan.