Lee Jae-myung, Fatherland judicial risk...Minju refrains from 'blue clothes' at outdoor rallies

■ Host: anchor Lee Jung-seop
■ Starring: Lee Jong-hoon, political critic, Cha Jae-won, special professor at Busan Catholic University

* The text below may differ from the actual broadcast content, so please check the broadcast for more accurate information. Please specify [YTN Newswide] when quoting.

[Anchor]
Let's take a look at the political news. The judicial risk of the opposition party is in full swing. Representative Lee Jae-myung's first trial ruling on perjury teacher charges is two days away. Cho Kuk, the leader of the Cho Kuk Innovation Party, who is on trial for corruption in entrance examinations and cover-up of inspections, is set to be finalized by the Supreme Court in December. While the opposition party's power landscape is expected to change depending on the outcome of the trial, the opposition party's outdoor rally was also held today. Let's summarize the week's political issues, including related news. Lee Jong-hoon, a current affairs critic, and Cha Jae-won, a special professor at Busan Catholic University. Please come in. First, let's talk about today's outdoor rally denouncing the regime. It seems to have changed slightly from before, but the Democratic Party of Korea has decided to refrain from wearing clothes or flags that reveal the color of the party. Let's get to this point. What's the reason?

[Borrowing]
From the Democratic Party's point of view, I think it is a measure to expand the participation of not only Democrats but also ordinary citizens. In fact, since the rally itself is meant to condemn various state affairs manipulation against the Yoon Suk Yeol regime and to urge the passage of the Special Prosecutor Kim Gun-hee Act, if the Democratic Party is actually leading the rally, it could be seen as a kind of resistance to the results of the first trial of the Public Official Election Act by Chairman Lee Jae-myung. From that point of view, the Democratic Party of Korea must have thought that it is necessary to clearly define the nature of these rallies. And I mentioned it briefly.Ma may be seen as an objection to the judiciary over the results of the first trial's sentence against representative Lee Jae-myung. I think it is a measure that includes a political calculation that such parts could affect the first trial of perjury teachers on Monday.

[Anchor]
You pointed out various political calculations. There is also an analysis such as the party's exit strategy on whether civic participation will increase once the Democratic Party of Korea is removed. What do you think?

[Jonghun Lee]
If the general public actively responded, so if the fire broke out like a wildfire, not only the middle but also the conservatives participated in the candlelight revolution in 2016, we wouldn't have taken this step. But CEO Lee Jae-myung said, "I thought that if DJ or YS took to the streets with a flag like this, there would be a lot of people in the past when DJs or YS spoke to the public, but the atmosphere was not as good as I thought. And shouldn't this spread? Even if the party started an outdoor rally in the first place, it would lead to a public rally if the people were angry and participated a lot, but that didn't work out. That's why I changed my strategy. And in the same case during the 2016 candlelight vigil, when we think back to that time, when party officials went to the candlelight vigil, the candlelight vigil protesters were not very happy. Even now, the people are in that atmosphere, but I think that this happened because only the Democratic Party of Korea took the lead in the atmosphere by itself.

[Anchor]
Anyway, the main body of the outdoor rally is the Democratic Party. Now, CEO Lee Jae-myung has made his first public opinion on the judiciary since the first trial ruling. I respect and believe in the judiciary if I tell you exactly what Wording is. I mentioned that criticism of the entire judiciary is not desirable, but as you mentioned earlier, I wonder if you considered a second trial on Monday, the day after tomorrow, or how you interpret these remarks. Can the professor point it out first?

[Borrowing]
I think there's a side that's clearly conscious of that. In fact, the results of the first trial of the Public Official Election Act overturned everyone's expectations and were sentenced to a considerable heavy sentence. Because of the prison sentence, the Democratic Party was quite shocked. That's why we talked about it last Friday.Ma is a kind of judicial murder at the conference of various parties that were held at the beginning of the week when the Democrats were quite angry over the weekend. The judge who graduated from Seoul National University of Law began to look like an disobedience to the judiciary. There was also a lot of opposition that these parts were not actually from the mouth of the main opposition party, which has legislative power. Because of those parts, I think you might have thought that it is necessary to turn public opinion considerably. And representative Lee Jae-myung said that he talked about the court of public sentiment and history after the first trial of the Public Official Election Act came out, but there are still two real courts left. In fact, today's representative Lee Jae-myung had a considerable virtue in the judiciary to be here. As you may remember, during the 2018 Gyeonggi-do governor election, he was convicted of violating the Public Official Election Act and went to the Supreme Court, and eventually it was overturned, leading to today's representative Lee Jae-myung. Also, last year, the National Assembly passed a motion to arrest representative Lee Jae-myung. However, since the court rejected it in the warrant review, representative Lee Jae-myung has overcome another political crisis, the actual court cannot be disappointed like this from the perspective of representative Lee Jae-myung. I think that's what he said.

[Anchor]
He pointed out that the remarks were made in consideration of public opinion and the court of reality. First of all, I didn't hold a microphone or give a public speech at today's outdoor rally. Then, do you see this part in a similar context?

[Jonghun Lee]
It's a sharp turn with a low key strategy. In fact, before the first trial on the 15th, he put a lot of pressure on the judiciary. He also launched a 1 million signature campaign centered on his supporters, sent a petition for innocence to the court, and pressured the judiciary very strongly, which is causing anger in the judiciary. I think I made this judgment. So, I believe that this is counterproductive rather than a positive effect, and I think Lee Jae-myung made remarks that lowered the level a little. It was like that at today's outdoor rally and the last outdoor rally, and the goal is not the original goal of the judiciary, but when you hold an outdoor rally, you get a lot of critical comments about the judiciary. I think that's why I felt the need to refrain from those parts.

[Anchor]
Except for floor leader Park Chan-dae, no one was on the floor. Then, let's talk about the second judicial risk, the perjury teacher charge trial, which will be held on Monday for CEO Lee Jae-myung. In any case, the issue is whether Lee Jae-myung demanded false testimony from Kim Jin-sung, the former secretary of Seongnam Mayor, but the prosecution has demanded a maximum sentence of three years in prison under the Supreme Court sentencing standards. Could you point out CEO Lee Jae-myung's argument and tell us how this will be accepted?

[Borrowing]
From Lee Jae-myung's point of view, he received a fine of 1.5 million won in a trial related to the impersonation of a prosecutor 22 years ago, and the 1.5 million won part was conspired by Seongnam Mayor and KBS to drive him as the main culprit.
This is what I talked about during the 2018 Gyeonggi-do governor election, and this part was charged with false information. In this regard, I called Kim Jin-sung, who was the secretary of the late Seongnam Mayor Kim Byung-ryang, who was well aware of the situation at the time. I asked him to testify, but it's in the transcript.It's been quite a long time since Kim Jin-sung was born. So I said I don't remember it well, but just tell me as it is. That's what I said. However, from the prosecution's point of view, he forced witnesses who could not remember well to testify using various positions and authority of the incumbent governor, and in the process, sent a summary of his argument to Kim Jin-sung, who could not remember, distorted his memory and testified. That's what I'm claiming. From Lee Jae-myung's point of view, he told him to talk as he is, and from the prosecution's point of view, why did he send the summary of his argument? It's like sending an answer sheet to some kind of model water in advance. These two logics are conflicting, and how the court will judge this seems to be the key.

[Anchor]
You pointed out the key, but in fact, in the case of perjury teacher charges, if the charges are admitted, the court is strictly punishing them. So, the ruling party is expecting to receive a higher sentence this time than the previous election law violation trial, so what do you think about this?

[Jonghun Lee]
In the last case, the prosecution asked for two years. However, he was sentenced to one year in prison. So in this case, the prosecution asked for three years, so wouldn't the court sentence it to about a year and a half in consideration of various matters? There are comments like this, too. I think that's roughly how I see it. As you said earlier, I just told you to talk as you are, but if someone who is a high-ranking position with a pretty big difference calls and talks like this, you can't help but feel quite outside pressure. You have to take those situations into account, between public officials or between former public officials. The judiciary is also keeping that in mind. So, even in this case, I personally think that there is a high possibility of a guilty sentence. It would be Lee Jae-myung's position to avoid sentences of

[Anchor]
or higher. If you are sentenced to another prison term in a row, please point out what will happen to Lee Jae-myung's political position in the future.

[Jonghun Lee]
You'll be in a lot more trouble than you are now. In fact, it was a custom to quit the party's duty when it entered the prosecution stage under the Democratic Party's Constitutional Party Regulations, and the Party Constitutional Party Regulations also stipulated that. However, for CEO Lee Jae-myung, he has been able to maintain his duty even after he was indicted by unreasonably revising the party constitution rules last time. In fact, he is trying to keep his position by pushing himself a little too hard in that regard, and it is not true with past political practices in the Democratic Party. That's why there have been calls for resignation since the time when he was already indicted, but I think it's desirable for me to quit on my own if I'm actually sentenced to prison in the first trial. So, of course, he has to live, but the leaders of the Democratic Party have been. For example, even if we don't think of people like YS and DJ, many people have been involved in these cases since then, but they resigned themselves in the prosecution stage, so in fact, they did things to ensure the existence of the party. So, there were things like the spirit of the first lady, but I think CEO Lee Jae-myung doesn't have that at all.

[Anchor]
He pointed out that he is trying too hard to stay in his seat, but with Lee Jae-myung at the center, pro-Myeong circles are the main pillars of the Democratic Party. Isn't it possible to shake the political circles?

[Borrowing]
If a perjury teacher is sentenced to prison this time, it will probably not have a lot of shock inside. However, this does not mean that the pro-Myeonggye will collapse at this point. I mentioned the reality court earlier.Ma is still in a situation that remains twice, so it is still necessary to argue more legally. And the other is that public support for the Yoon Suk Yeol regime is falling considerably, so there may be some political variables in the future. I'm going to imagine a lot of hopeful situations like that. Nevertheless, if the second trial of the Public Official Election Act comes out in the next three months as the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court recommended, the results of the second trial will be the same as the first trial, then even the pro-Myeong community will be quite agitated, and I think even within the pro-Myeong community, there will be talk of Plan B by then. I think that no matter what the results come out on Monday, the pro-Myeong community will be more and more united.

[Anchor]
Let's see the results. Now, we have pointed out the judicial risks of the main opposition party, and Cho Kuk, the leader of the Cho Kuk Innovation Party, the third party in the floor, is also facing judicial risks. Next month, the Supreme Court is waiting for a final ruling on the trial on charges of corruption in entrance exams and covering up inspections, but the Supreme Court is not looking at the facts, but makes a legal judgment whether the sentence was legally correct before that. Can you point it out first?

[Cha Jae-won]
First of all, we are fighting about 11 charges. Among them, the key part is probably the corruption of children's entrance exams. And the other part is that he closed the inspection of his daughter's scholarship at Pusan National University Medical Center, whether she reported false information when reporting the property of a public official, and the special inspection related to the corruption of Yoo Jae-soo, a former deputy mayor for economic affairs in Busan. It is noteworthy how these parts will be talked about, but in fact, during the first and second trials, the attitude and crime shown by the defendant Cho Kuk at the time were all denied, and there was no reflection. I think that's probably something that the Supreme Court justices should look into in the process of legal deliberation.

[Anchor]
And Supreme Court Justice Um Sang-pil, who is now the referee of the appeal, is with Representative Cho Kuk. I was previously convicted of all of them by former Professor Chung Kyung-sim, but I wonder how the representative of the country will judge the legal trial.

[Jonghun Lee]
I don't know if we should define the judge's judgment as such a bad relationship, and he must have made the judgment based on the law when he was convicted last time, and he has more experience and is actually the best honorary position among the judges, so he is more concerned about the sentence. What else do they want? I think I will make a strict decision because I want an honor.

[Anchor]
You pointed out the strict judgment. Representative Cho Kuk will now face a crisis of imprisonment if the sentence is confirmed in the Supreme Court ruling, and I wonder what will happen to the Cho Kuk Innovation Party in the future. What are your views?

[Borrowing]
First of all, if the sentence is confirmed according to the second trial, I think it will be a situation where the representative of the country will be virtually expelled politically. First of all, you have to face two years in prison. If you can't do politics for seven years because your right to run for public office is limited for five years, it's actually not easy to return to politics considering the various ages of representative Cho Kuk. If so, if representative Cho Kuk leaves the political front line, as we know in the name of the party, Cho Kuk Innovation Party, some people talk about 90% or 99% of the total stake. If representative Cho Kuk steps down like this, will the party called Cho Kuk Innovation Party ever exist? Of course, party officials say that regardless of the political course of representative Cho Kuk, we will do our job.In terms of political reality, there is a possibility that Ma will be merged into the Democratic Party, which has a larger scale. Of course, some say that even if Representative Cho Kuk steps down, it can be used as a political base for the so-called pro-Moon and pro-Roh faction. According to Representative Cho Kuk's political actions, he has rarely shown such a deliberate political confrontation with Representative Lee Jae-myung. In the end, I think these parts will be decided according to the will of representative Cho Kuk.Ma thinks that it is unlikely to be a key base for pro-Roh or pro-Moon. And we're only looking at cases of guilt.E is that the case of destruction and repatriation cannot be ruled out at all. Since there are 11 charges, even if one or two of them are destroyed and returned for the purpose of innocence, political breath is open to the representative of his country. If it takes several months to go to the revocation trial, so if there are unexpected political variables such as the resignation of the Yoon Suk Yeol regime during this time, that's why the Supreme Court's sentence is noteworthy because representative Cho Kuk can seek a political path.

[Anchor]
Anyway, the Cho Kuk Innovation Party continued to push for the floor negotiation group because it was the third party in the floor, but now it is expected that it will lose its power, and if the prison sentence is confirmed, it seems so. The opposition party continues to pressure Kim Gun-hee on the loan of the Special Prosecutor's Act, including an off-the-shelf rally condemning the regime. Wouldn't it be possible to lose the momentum for this?

[Jonghun Lee]
Unless representative Lee Jae-myung receives consecutive prison sentences, there is a possibility that the Kim Gun-hee Special Prosecutor Act will continue to be pursued in the future. Didn't you open the way for the permanent independent counsel law to operate in addition to the Kim Gun-hee Special Counsel Act? So I think that the offensive will continue. In the relationship between representative Lee Jae-myung and representative Cho Kuk, there is a possibility that the power will be reorganized again around those who also survive. So, there is a high possibility that it will be an opposition trial, but I don't think it will be reorganized immediately, and I think changes in the power landscape can be attempted ahead of the next local election at the earliest or the next presidential election at the latest.

[Anchor]
We pointed out the judicial risk of Lee Jae-myung and the judicial risk of Cho Kuk, the leader of the Cho Kuk Innovation Party. And now let's talk about the power of the people. The ruling party also showed that it was aiming for reflective profits due to representative Lee Jae-myung's judicial risk, but it didn't seem to be that big. The approval rating of the people's power party did not rebound significantly. Where do you think the cause is?

[Jonghun Lee]
This is because expectations for CEO Han Dong-hoon have all gone out of the bubble. That's how I see it. When Han Dong-hoon became the representative at the national convention, expectations were considerable. So, in my opinion, there was a considerable bubble, but over time, CEO Han Dong-hoon pushed for various things.Ma has not done anything smartly. In that situation, and in the meantime, the conflict with President Yoon Suk Yeol escalated, but even so, he could not clearly differentiate himself from President Yoon Suk Yeol and take the path of his politics. We're still in a situation where we're in limbo. As a result, the frame related to CEO Han Dong-hoon in the past. So it's just an avatar of the president of Yoon Suk Yeol. That's what works, again. At the same time, the Han Dong-hoon bubble is falling out at a very rapid pace, and as a result, the party's approval rating of the people's power is also linked to President Yoon Suk Yeol's approval rating.

[Anchor]
He pointed out that such a part of the people's power linked to President Yoon Suk Yeol's approval rating is the cause. How do you see it now, the approval rating of the people's power?

[Borrowing]
I think it's because the ruling party has lost the energy of reform and innovation that the people are demanding now because they think the political landscape will develop in our favor because of the judicial risk of representative Lee Jae-myung and the Supreme Court's sentence. This is the title of an editorial in a certain newspaper a while ago. The title of the editorial was Lee Jae-myung and Kim Gun-hee is Kim Gun-hee. In fact, even if representative Lee Jae-myung's political career is blocked due to his fault, the reflective interests do not go by themselves with the power of the people. There is a public demand to fundamentally solve the problem of Kim Gun-hee, who raised the confusion of various so-called state affairs, which is the first task facing the people's power. However, as if everything is solved without this overseas trip, the people cannot acknowledge the power of the people and the president's office. Since I think those parts will coolly lead to the approval rating of the people, in fact, I think that the people's power will be able to rebound only when proactive and proactive measures are taken to speed up self-purification, reform efforts, and even the presidential office to fundamentally solve Kim Gun-hee's problems.

[Anchor]
We listened to your interpretation of the approval rating of the people's power. First of all, there is a conflict within the power of the people, and the cause is the problem of the party bulletin board. Let's talk about this, but CEO Han Dong-hoon recently expressed his position on this. He dismissed the need to fall into an unnecessary self-destruction column, but pro-Yoon-gye is continuing to demand clarification. Even the party's audit is being discussed, but do you think Han's remarks or responses increase controversy?

[Jonghun Lee]
That's right. So CEO Han Dong-hoon, who is smart, doesn't give a smart answer to this issue. You can answer yes or no whether your family is related, but you are not answering yes or no. Of course, politicians use this kind of phrase a lot. I think it's long, and I don't think it is, and there are a lot of NSND, but that's understandable in the case of other established politicians, but in the case of representative Han Dong-hoon, he has not shown such a position so far, so he is showing such an opaque attitude only on this issue, and doubts are growing in the party. In the current situation, it seems that we have no choice but to accept the attack from the pro-Yoon-gye, and since representative Han said he will announce his position by next Monday, we will have to wait and see, but I think it's probably a concern about where they will cut off internally.

[Anchor]
How do you see the conflict between close and pro-yoon over the party bulletin board?

[Borrower]
As you said, I certainly agree with you quite a bit. Actually, I think it's not like CEO Han Dong-hoon. It is said that he has been making political moves until now, but I wonder why he won't show such a smart attitude when it comes to matters related to him. When the former Gyeongnam Governor Kim Kyung-soo's pardon was mentioned last time, CEO Han Dong-hoon said that such an act of distorting public sentiment, like the Druking case, is an act of destroying democracy, so such a person should not be pardoned. Although it is a party bulletin board within the party, as his aides say, if others borrowed the name of Han Dong-hoon's family and manipulated public opinion on the party bulletin board, it is inevitable to point out what is different from the Druking case. Above all, if Han Dong-hoon's family did so, it is clear that the leader of a party or a public party should first reveal himself about unsavory stories related to his family and take political responsibility for them, even if legal responsibility is excluded. What kind of stories are coming out of the so-called confidante group and even if the family did it, what's wrong with this? I think this kind of story itself cannot be free from such criticism as why CEO Han Dong-hoon is not applying the hypocrisy and falsehood of those in power who criticized him so much during the motherland crisis.

[Anchor]
Now, the National Assembly's budget review begins again. There will be a very sharp conflict between the ruling and opposition parties, but how should we plan our strategy in the future as a force of the people who are experiencing factional conflict within the party?

[Jonghun Lee]
In any case, this problem is a situation where we are close to each other, so we have to solve this problem quickly. And in this regard, CEO Han Dong-hoon said, "I think the sooner we make a decision, the better. So, when I talk about CEO Lee Jae-myung a little while ago, I told him about the history of the party, and CEO Han Dong-hoon also thinks that if the cases related to him are at a point where he cannot explain himself, the way to help the party is to decide on his future course of action quickly. And usually, I think the answer is already there. Because when you see people who post on the bulletin board, the amount of writing is huge. Then, it means that he is a very enthusiastic member of the party. He is such an enthusiastic member of the party, but if he was not a member of CEO Han Dong-hoon's family, he would have already come out. I'm a very passionate member, I support representative Han Dong-hoon and I'm critical of President Yoon Suk Yeol, but I'm a member of the party who loves the power of the people. I'm not a family. Several people should have come forward like this, but no one is coming forward. Then I think the answer is roughly out.

[Anchor]
I see. That's all for today. So far, I have been with Lee Jong-hoon, a current affairs critic, and Cha Jae-won, a special professor at Busan Catholic University. Thank you for talking today.