"Your Excellency in Impeachment" vs "Disbandment of the Security Department"...Jung Kook is confused.

■ Host: Chang Won-seok Anchor
■ Starring: Lee Jong-hoon, Political Critic, Cha Jae-won, Special Professor of Busan Catholic University

* The text below may differ from the actual broadcast content, so please check the broadcast for more accurate information. Please specify [YTN Newswide] when quoting.

[Anchor]
The aftermath of the failure of the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit to execute the arrest warrant for President Yoon Suk Yeol continues. The ruling and opposition parties convened an emergency general meeting today, the weekend, and started to seek countermeasures. We will be joined by Jungkook Issue Critic Lee Jong-hoon and Cha Jae-won, a special professor at Busan Catholic University. Please come in. As I said, the People's Power and the Democratic Party held an emergency assembly. Let's first hear what's been said here.

[Kwon Seong-dong, floor leader of the People's Power Party: We are not defending the president when we criticize the execution of the presidential arrest warrant by the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit. It's about protecting law and order, protecting the rule of law, and protecting the Republic of Korea. The Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit does not have the right to investigate the crime of rebellion. Nevertheless, an arrest warrant was requested from the Seoul Western District Court, and the Western District Court recognized the right to investigate rebellion by the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit without a legal basis. The judiciary encouraged confusion in the investigation system. ]

[Park Chan-dae, floor leader of the Democratic Party of Korea: The obstruction of the security service's execution of arrest warrants is a second civil war. He obstructed law enforcement and claimed to be a civil war soldier who defended the insurgents. As the security service destroys the Constitution and laws and claims to be a civil war soldier, there is no reason to exist anymore, and illegal activities should not be neglected. The presidential body, the bodyguard, should be disbanded and the bodyguard service should be transferred to other agencies like other countries. ]

[Anchor]
The opinions of both sides were divided. The power of the people claimed that the execution of arrest warrants by the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit was illegal and invalid. The Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit is in a position that the related controversy is over because the court issued an arrest warrant, so what did you think?

[Borrowing]
I think the claim of the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit is correct. I don't think there is a legal basis for the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit to prevent the execution of the arrest warrant normally issued by the court. The head of the agency can reject the search and seizure part if it is required for official or military secrets, but there is no basis to prevent arrest warrants. In fact, I think the reason why the execution of the arrest warrant was canceled yesterday was because of the problem of President Yoon's mobilization of security guards to block the arrest warrant like his soldiers. He wrote this story in an editorial in a certain newspaper today. The title is, "The president is cruel against the law while refusing to comply with the warrant." I think it's a really pathetic act. In fact, President Yoon, who has been a lifelong prosecutor, knows the legitimacy of the execution of the arrest warrant better than anyone else. And he also said that he would stand up to impeachment or investigation in relation to martial law last time. But in the end, for your own safety, the bodyguard is also a public servant. I think he did a really cowardly act of pushing public officials out as criminals.

[Anchor]
The Democratic Party strongly criticized the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit, saying, "If you are not confident in executing the arrest warrant, transfer the case to the police." How did you like it?

[Jonghun Lee]
Each of us complains about things we're not satisfied with and talks about illegal things. It's actually not like this, but it's actually a very strong political pressure. However, the disappointing part about the power of the people recently is that floor leader Kwon Sung-dong was also a legal professional, right? People who know the law better than anyone else are saying that it's illegal and invalid, but let's at least respect the judiciary's decision. The ruling and opposition parties have expressed dissatisfaction with the judiciary when the results of various politicians' trials come out, but have they nevertheless taken the position of respecting them? But I think that I've been trying to break even that taboo recently. Regarding the issuance of this arrest warrant, if the western support decided that it should not be issued because it is not under the jurisdiction of the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit, it would not have issued it. And in the process of making a judgment on such a sensitive issue, would the West Support not have communicated with the Supreme Court, this side, or the judiciary command? I'm sure they all communicated. And I issued it because I thought there was no problem, but I keep raising questions about the judiciary's decision, which can have a very negative impact on myself in the future, and that's what I think.

[Anchor]
Looking back on the Democratic Party floor leader Park Chan-dae, the presidential body's security agency should be disbanded and the security work should be transferred to other organizations like other countries. In the case of other countries, there are cases where it is not a direct organization, right?

[Borrowing]
In fact, none of the major countries have an independent organization. In the case of the United States, it is called the US Secret Service. In that case, it was originally a member of the Ministry of Finance, but recently it was a member of the Department of Homeland Security. And France, which has a presidential country we know well, is also protected by the factor security office under the National Police Agency. And in Germany, there are presidents and prime ministers. If you look there, it's under the Federal Police Agency. In the case of Japan, the king of Japan is then protected by the Imperial Police Headquarters. And the prime minister is also doing it at the airport department of the security bureau. Among the so-called major countries, Korea is almost the only country that has an independent body of security. In fact, in the early days of the government establishment in Korea, the police actually protected it. Representatively, until the time of President Syngman Rhee, there was a separate police organization dedicated to the security of the president called the Gyeongmudae Police. At that time, the police chief was Kwak Young-joo, so after the death of his brother on April 19, President Park Chung-hee took power, he independently served as a bodyguard. However, after that, the security agency wielded considerable power and said that it should be reorganized in a different way than an independent organization, but those discussions fizzled out and came this far. The problem is that security guards have to risk their lives on security targets. But this is not the dynasty era. So, it's right to protect the president of the Republic of Korea 100%.Ma does not mean that the President of the Republic of Korea can reign over the law. If so, it is quite problematic for me to prevent even warrants executed by the legal system. If so, I think it is right to reorganize from an independent organization to a police-affiliated level in order to strengthen the democratic control over the security organization.

[Anchor]
If the security service is disbanded and transferred to another institution as floor leader Park Chan-dae said, will the friction between the execution be reduced if such a problem arises again?

[Jonghun Lee]
That's right. Wouldn't the crime of obstructing the execution of special public affairs apply this time? So the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit has charged the head of security and the deputy head of the department, but at least that won't happen. And in fact, you explained the background a while ago, but this is also a product of the military regime. However, it has not been organized yet, but the biggest problem is that the security agency exists under the direct control of the president. It is structured so that it only follows the president's orders. Then, naturally, as controversy arises this time, it becomes a private organization or a private soldier. In fact, wasn't there a lot of controversy during the former President Park Geun Hye and the seizure and search process of Cheong Wa Dae in the past? Some pointed out that the security service is excessively protecting the president, and in fact, if the system is reorganized this time, I think that the security service part must be adjusted.

[Anchor]
We are showing you the appearance of Hannam-ro, Seoul, near the presidential residence at this time, and it is Eom Dong-seol-han. It may snow tomorrow early in the morning, but a lot of people are gathering to hold a rally for and against it. Then, with the arrest warrant remaining until Monday, will you try again, or if you try again, when will you start executing it? How are you looking at it?

[Borrowing]
Well, it's not easy for me to predict either. In fact, from the perspective of the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit, I think it would be desirable to execute the arrest warrant quickly. Actually, yesterday's case also withdrew too early. In fact, he stepped down after about five and a half hours, but today, the police say that if he held out a little longer, he could have broken through. Anyway, I think there is a possibility tomorrow, but the problem is that there is a possibility of choosing a weekday rather than a holiday because there are too many protesters from both sides staying up all night. Another concern about choosing a weekday was that the execution of the arrest warrant was broadcast in real time to foreign media around the world yesterday. I listened to BBC radio news yesterday, and it was reported that for the first time in history, an arrest warrant was executed by an incumbent president who was so embarrassed as a person of the Korean people. And what's the charge, so he's now accused of leading the civil war. How anxious would Korea look when people around the world and people who don't know this content hear this? In fact, if these parts are broadcasted again on weekdays, it will have an impact on our financial market, so if we consider these parts, I think the possibility will be mixed whether it is tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.

[Anchor]
How do the critics view it?

[Jonghun Lee]
I don't think it's going to last long. At first, I also thought that the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit had withdrawn too easily, but I think it may have gone through a build-up process of some kind. He must have decided that he would stubbornly block it. In the meantime, the police department issued a summons notification on charges of special public affairs execution, as you mentioned earlier about the head of the security department and the deputy head of the department. I asked him to summon me today, but he didn't respond. You must be under quite a lot of psychological pressure. In fact, if the charges are applied and confirmed, it is a situation where you have to blow away everything you have done for decades in public life. When such a situation comes, it actually has a very bad effect on the family. So, I think I tried to build up that justification and go through those procedures to systematically put pressure on it. So, if I try the second round again this time, the health department will have to feel a considerable psychological burden to actively prevent the bodyguard. That's what I think. So, if possible, I think they'll try to process it around tomorrow.

[Anchor]
Currently, the Democratic Party and the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit should direct the security service to Acting President Choi Sang-mok. So actively cooperate in executing the warrant. How did you see this when you demanded that you conduct this kind of command?

[Borrowing]
I think that's a natural step. In fact, the president is suspended from office. That's why the person in charge of the presidential residence is actually Choi Sang-mok, acting president. If so, I think it would be right for Acting President Choi Sang-mok to strongly instruct the Security Agency yesterday to never overprotect the execution of the arrest warrant and to follow legal procedures unconditionally. What Acting Chief Justice Choi Sang-mok said when he appointed two constitutional judges last time is that political instability and social conflict should be ended. They said it was a way to minimize the impact on our economy. As I said earlier, the moment the incumbent president of the Republic of Korea is arrested is also a huge blow to national prestige. The problem is that the political confusion and social conflict surrounding it are exposed to the world, which is different from the original intention when Acting President Choi Sang-mok appointed a constitutional judge. If you think about this, I think there should be an active role of acting Choi Sang-mok when the arrest warrant is executed again tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.

[Anchor]
If the same situation as yesterday is repeated, the execution of the warrant fails, and then does the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit have a scenario like requesting an arrest warrant or indicting him without detention?

[Jonghun Lee]
Of course. So there's a saying that they're going to ask for a preliminary arrest warrant. Even if you request an arrest warrant, in fact, another situation like this could happen when you execute the warrant. In fact, it is much easier for the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit and the National Assistance Investigation Division to execute the arrest warrant anyway and complete the execution. And the fact is, the more this continues, the more unstable the country becomes. Of course, it will inevitably have a more adverse effect on external credibility, so it is necessary to conclude this quickly.That's what I think. Anyway, I think the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit has stopped it. However, acting president Choi Sang-mok is being suspected by both the ruling and opposition parties. What the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit initially requested was that the security service asked for cooperation not to commit violent crimes, but according to conservative media reports, acting authority Choi Sang-mok instructed in the opposite direction, right? Some even say that they cooperated with the security service and ordered the police and the military to mobilize the security forces. Acting Superintendent Choi Sang-mok or the police say it wasn't ordered.Ma is misunderstood as such anyway. It would not be very good for Acting President Choi Sang-mok to be misunderstood, but as I said earlier, the biggest problem is that it is having a very negative impact on the nation's external credibility. It's right to end it quickly. And as I said a while ago, issuing arrest warrants in the judiciary must be carried out. What criminals would accept arrest if the judicial branch kept adding up such precedents that it could not be enforced? It gives rise to a lot more fruits. So, I think it would be better to make such a decision even considering the legal order and legal system in Korea.

[Anchor]
And yesterday, the Constitutional Court's second hearing on the impeachment trial of President Yoon Suk Yeol was held. The National Assembly's impeachment investigation team withdrew its rebellion from the grounds for impeachment, so please explain what this is for.

[Cha Jae-won]
The first reason for the impeachment was the rebellion. The second is the declaration of an unconstitutional emergency martial law, which the National Assembly said in the preparatory hearing yesterday, "In the end, the rebellion may fall under the criminal law, so if we stick to this and decide whether we violate it, the impeachment trial could be delayed considerably." Because of such a judgment, the second reason is that only the unconstitutional declaration of emergency martial law is considered as a violation of the Constitution, so even if that part is considered, there is no problem in the impeachment trial being cited. If so, he insisted that the first part of the impeachment charge related to the rebellion that he talked about would be excluded. The ruling party, including the people's power, seems to be strongly protesting against this, saying that this was a kind of fraud to the people when making the impeachment resolution.

[Anchor]
The possibility that the impeachment trial could be buried because of the criminal law issue has been mentioned for a long time, but regarding the speed war, they suspect that the power of the people is ultimately to find representative Lee Jae-myung.

[Jonghun Lee]
You can have such doubts. And in fact, I guess the Democratic Party probably considered that as well. But can this have an impact on the constitutional trial? It means you can't reach it. So, what the National Assembly prosecution said this time is that it will exclude the part of the criminal law that disputes the crime of rebellion, and that part from the hearing process of the Constitutional Court. The Constitutional Court would have pointed out that if this were the reason why the constitutional trial was difficult to proceed properly or that the impeachment itself could not be established. Do you think so? If that was the case, he would have pointed out that the impeachment itself would not be established, or that the National Assembly should re-decide the impeachment bill. But I didn't make that point. This is similar to the process of prosecutors changing the indictment, and the Constitutional Court also accepted the decision to withdraw because the Constitutional Court recognized it. And it is said that there was also a request from the Constitutional Court. If the court deals with the crime of rebellion under the criminal law, the prosecution and police are investigating anyway, and in fact, the Constitutional Court will have to wait until the charges of rebellion are cleared. I think I pointed out such problems and concerns because it could be a situation where a constitutional trial is possible only when the guilt or innocence is confirmed. I think he pointed out that the psychology could be prolonged. The National Assembly's prosecution has reacted to that, but is this illegal or unconstitutional? If that were the case, that would have already been pointed out by the Constitutional Court. That's what I think.

[Anchor]
However, President Yoon Suk Yeol and the power of the people say that if the crime of rebellion, which was the core of the impeachment motion, is eliminated, the National Assembly should decide again. What do you think of this?

[Borrowing]
I'm not really a legal expert, so I'm not capable of making a high-level judgment on this.Ma, I think this similar situation happened in 2016 when Park Geun Hye was impeached. So, regarding President Park Geun Hye's manipulation of state affairs, I thought that part of the impeachment motion was initially included in the impeachment motion, but it was adjusted by the National Assembly at the time, judging that there was no big problem with the violation of the Constitution in the process of judging the impeachment, and it was Kwon Sung-dong, the floor leader of the People's Power, who coincidentally served as the chairman of the National Assembly's judiciary committee at the time. That's why the Democratic Party of Korea seems to be saying that the power of the people and President Yoon's claims are actually far-fetched claims. And nothing has changed about the part of the impeachment. It is argued that nothing has changed in essence because the part of the rebellion is not completely excluded, but only the evaluation of it. However, the power of the people and President Yoon's side are talking about another thing. However, anyway, I think the Constitutional Court will probably organize this neatly as mentioned earlier at the first hearing on the 14th.

[Anchor]
Yesterday's hearing preparation date, President Yoon Suk Yeol raised the issue of the composition of the judges. Since the National Assembly's impeachment of Prime Minister Han Duck-soo itself is invalid, the appointment of two constitutional judges by Acting President Choi Sang-mok, who is acting in an invalid state, is also invalid. Is there any chance that the Constitutional Court will accept this?

[Jonghun Lee]
There's no chance. If it was judged that it was invalid or unconstitutional, would the Constitutional Court have accepted these people this time? They wouldn't have accepted it. Wouldn't you have waited until it was fully resolved? If there was such a controversy. But as you know, the Constitutional Court held the inauguration ceremony of the two new constitutional judges this time, and they immediately entered their duties. The Constitutional Court has accepted all of this because there is no problem, but I don't know what it means to raise such a problem in that state.

[Anchor]
Meanwhile, former Defense Minister Kim Yong-hyun's indictment was announced through the media. So, the situation at the time of martial law and the president's actions are gradually being materialized, and if you look at the indictment, it is former Minister Kim's indictment, but there are more mentions of President Yoon. In fact, there is an evaluation of whether it is President Yoon's indictment, what do you think?

[Borrowing]
In fact, regarding the alleged rebellion, the investigation authorities have already defined former Minister Kim Yong-hyun as the main mission worker for the rebellion, and the number of the rebellion is aimed at President Yoon, so I think there are probably more stories about President Yoon's various actions as the supreme conductor. Anyway, regardless of whether it's the head or the main mission worker, it's a collaboration between the two when it comes to emergency martial law. Those parts seem to have become clear, and although it is an indictment against former Minister Kim Yong-hyun, it is possible to predict that the final target of the investigative authorities is targeting President Yoon.

[Anchor]
Last year, President Yoon Suk Yeol appointed Kim Yong-hyun, the then presidential security minister, as the defense minister, and the prosecution sees this appointment as a preparation for de facto emergency martial law, right?

[Jonghun Lee]
In fact, the opposition had already raised that part at the time. As you may all remember, since August last year, the Democratic Party has raised concerns about the possibility of declaring an emergency martial law and pointed out that the Chungam faction is leading it. In that situation, the head of the security department was suddenly appointed as the Minister of National Defense last time. There was a lot of talk about how unusual it was back then, too. Shin Won-sik, the defense minister at the time, had just entered the country, and why did he suddenly make such a replacement? So the story that came out at that time is related to the personnel issue in the military. So, it was pointed out that the Choongam faction eventually appointed former Defense Minister Kim Yong-hyun as the defense minister at that time in order to appoint personnel in the military according to their will. But in fact, a lot of things have been revealed after the emergency martial law. At that time, the intelligence commander and such things were considered to be replaced at that time, and then just kept them in office. These things were all done around that time. As such things have been confirmed, it is now reported that the prosecution has included all of these parts.

[Anchor]
an 83-page indictment There are so many contents that I can't look at them all.Isn't the Cabinet meeting an issue? According to the indictment, President Yoon Suk Yeol reportedly told the members of the State Council that he had deliberated on the Cabinet and that he would go because he had to make an announcement. Are you pointing out that this was also a question and answer in the National Assembly, and that the process of declaring emergency martial law was actually violated?

[Borrowing]
In fact, the president is supposed to declare emergency martial law after deliberation by the Cabinet.In fact, the deliberation needs to be attributed to the result. Nevertheless, it is a demand that contains such a constitutional will to decide after hearing various opinions of the members of the State Council. However, President Yoon asked for a Cabinet meeting to be held, so just 11 people, so when the quorum of decisions was made, he left, according to the indictment. So, since all 11 of us gathered from the beginning and said, "I'm starting martial law now, so please express your opinion." I didn't mean to say this, but I just crossed over to the person who came, so Defense Minister Kim Yong-hyun, who can ask for martial law, didn't even submit the martial law-related part as a bill of the State Council. Also, what the members of the State Council sat down and talked about is not left as a minutes. In addition, if martial law is declared, many members of the State Council will destroy all the economic things that the Republic of Korea has fought for 70 years at once, despite such earnest appeals, I'm going because I'm done talking with the media. It means that he went as if he wanted to do it on his own. I think this will probably be the most decisive part of this impeachment trial.

[Anchor]
It was also interested in whether martial law forces would be armed. The indictment shows that martial law forces were dispatched to the scene with rifles and pistols. Special forces alone fired 52,000 shots, and water radiators were sniper rifles and shotguns. This seems to contradict what President Yoon Suk Yeol said.

[Jonghun Lee]
That's right. As you said to leave all these things behind, didn't you say that when you explained it last time? However, there are already cases in which live ammunition boxes were found in various videos and photos taken at the scene that day. In that state, President Yoon has continued to deny it. But the prosecution confirmed it through various channels. As a result of checking, the fact is that there were about a few thousand bullets at first, but it is now confirmed that they had or prepared a lot more bullets than that. So President Yoon's logic itself is collapsing a lot. That's what I think.

[Anchor]
The background of martial law, that is, the background of martial law, should be further revealed by the investigation. Ten days before the declaration of the emergency martial law, President Yoon Suk Yeol mentioned Myung Tae-kyun and mentioned the possibility of impeaching the judge in connection with Lee Jae-myung's trial, lamenting that this is me, that special measures are needed, so former Defense Minister Kim Yong-hyun prepared and refined the decree and the statement, and it was reported to President Yoon two days before martial law. But what was the decisive factor in declaring martial law in the end?

[Borrowing]
Maybe it was October 31st. When the Democratic Party of Korea released the transcript of the phone call between Myung Tae-kyun and President Yoon, there was a smoking gun from the opposition party, which caused considerable public opinion. That's why President Yoon, who was about to visit, changed his schedule and eventually held a public press conference. However, even at that press conference, there was a lot of criticism for not being able to apologize properly. Maybe it started to collapse psychologically from then on. In that situation, I would have shocked Lee Jae-myung's perjury teacher's first trial, which was released on November 25, was not guilty. If this happens, we can't convict representative Lee Jae-myung in any way legally, a kind of mental shock about that. In fact, the reason why the name of Judge Kim Dong-hyun, who tried at the time, was mentioned on the list of arrest groups is also there, and I think those two were the key points, the record of Myung Tae-kyun and the innocence of the first trial of perjury.

[Anchor]
And it was also revealed that former Minister Kim Yong-hyun made a statement to the effect that the public would approve if they found evidence of fraudulent elections before martial law. Even though the operation to take control of the NEC has actually failed, it is doubtful whether it is possible to send troops again.

[Jonghun Lee]
It was confirmed that he was obsessed with it until the end. I think President Yoon has had the perception of a fraudulent election for a long time. It is known that it has been influenced by conservative YouTubers quite a lot, but it was a situation where he was so sure, and he played an important role this time, including former Defense Minister Kim Yong-hyun as the former intelligence commander last time. I think there was almost a shared conviction among them that a rigged election was almost certain. And that perception is also recognized, but the fraudulent election frame was essential to complete the emergency martial law this time. In the end, there would have been no other way than a fraudulent election frame to remove the lawmakers' badges by arresting or punishing them all at once. In that sense, the purpose was there, so it is now being confirmed everywhere that I tried to actively utilize it.

[Anchor]
Shall I cut back on today's talk here? Lee Jong-hoon, a critic, and Cha Jae-won, a special professor at the Catholic University of Busan. Thank you both.