The only investigation left is the president...Ruling and opposition parties watch for re-execution of arrest warrants

■ Host: anchor Lee Jung-seop
■ Appearance: Cho Chung-rae, former vice president of Yeouido Institute, former head of the National Assembly Legislative Investigation Department Kim Man-heum

* The text below may differ from the actual broadcast content, so please check the broadcast for more accurate information. Please specify [YTN Newswide] when quoting.

[Anchor]
As former intelligence commander Roh Sang-won was arrested and charged yesterday, all key figures related to martial law were put on trial. However, the investigation into the president of Yoon Suk Yeol, who is at the peak of martial law, is struggling. The political battle is also continuing. Let's take a look at the political issue with Cho Chung-rae, former vice president of the Yeouido Institute, and Kim Man-heum, former head of the National Assembly's legislative investigation department. Please come in. With former commander Roh Sang-won being indicted, the key martial law investigation is now being completed. How did you see the series of processes from arrest, detention, and prosecution?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
Now, all the prosecution and police command have been arrested and charged. Since the indictment has been released, the investigation agencies seem to have made a lot of effort to specifically prove the charges of rebellion. Among them, in particular, the main mission workers of the rebellion moved to achieve the purpose of the national constitution. Then there's talk of riots. There is also a charge of rioting, and the indictment is organized with circumstantial evidence such as controlling access to the National Assembly or trying to drag out and arrest lawmakers. However, these parts are directly contrary to what the President of Yoon Suk Yeol and his lawyers have advocated so far. In particular, since the purpose of the national constitution is and the parts related to the composition of the riot charges are completely contradictory, it is seen that there should be a fierce legal battle and dispute during the investigation and trial process in the future.

[Anchor]
President Yoon Suk Yeol is indicated as the head of the rebellion in the indictment. However, in the case of workers now, the prosecution has been made, but it is very difficult to investigate President Yoon. I'm having a hard time right now, so how do you see the current situation?

[Kim Man-heum]
Even if the part of the worker's rebellion is not confirmed. It is sufficiently punishable for abuse of authority or other crimes. However, since President Yoon Suk Yeol is still a sitting president, it is possible if there is a charge of rebellion, so it is highly controversial. Therefore, criminal punishment is possible because impeachment was in mind in the beginning, but this could lead to civil war. From that point of view, the issue of rebellion began. However, the current situation is that the frame of rebellion has been changed beyond that level and should be arrested immediately. As you know now, the process of arresting the president was not very good because it even showed the confrontation between the two government forces and the rebels. The second round of arrest warrants is being issued, and people are usually asking when it will be. Rather than when it will be, I think there may be a way to deal with each other during that period, a new way, or a third way. Moreover, when will we talk about it now? I don't think it's an appropriate approach because the media is comparing the number of personnel in the security service and the number of personnel that can be mobilized from the rest of the airlift, as if comparing combat power. This doesn't seem appropriate to look at the situation like that. Anyway, although he is currently a major task force, it is a little different because the criminal punishment method of these people and the president must be confirmed for rebellion, but in any case, the prosecution and other Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit are proceeding with punishment for rebellion and are fighting for the last president.

[Anchor]
You pointed out the meaning of the period rather than the timing of the execution of the arrest warrant, but it's not known exactly now, but I think it's about two to three weeks. Why is it known for so long?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
Because he was criticized for failing in the first attempt, he must have been very long with the reissuance of the arrest warrant. So I don't know if it's a media guess or a report, but I usually think it's going to go until the Lunar New Year. Didn't you get the second arrest warrant for about three weeks? I got an issuance, but I think this is because the people have a large-scale rally on the weekend, so there are probably about two weeks left until the Lunar New Year holiday, so wouldn't the first attempt be made during weekdays? I think it's probably next week, so today is Saturday, so I can't even specify the time on weekdays anyway. You're doing it like a military operation, so would you like to hit the beehive in broad daylight? It could be like this at night or at dawn. It's hard to guess because it's so volatile.

[Anchor]
I've tried and failed in the morning before. I think we'll do it at the same time. In any case, the confrontation between the headquarters and the bodyguard over the execution of the arrest warrant is a very important issue, but former head of the bodyguard Park Jong-joon attended yesterday and came out again today to attend. I didn't expect a sudden attendance and I think there's a little background in coming out after resigning. How do you see it?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
In the case of former head of security Park Jong-joon, weren't you a former police officer? What kind of worries did I have? I look at it like this. Now, the president and his lawyers cannot respond until the appropriate investigative agency properly investigates, for example, an agency without the right to investigate an unlawful insurrection of an arrest warrant, and then the Seoul Western District Court has issued an inappropriate warrant. Aren't you continuing to reveal this tone? But this is a presidential issue. In the case of the security service, the first to third summonses for obstruction of the execution of special public affairs would not have been able to withstand the same logic. In particular, former Chief Park Jong-joon was a former police officer, so he must have thought about that. The next thing former Minister Park Jong-joon kept saying is that it is not appropriate to attempt an unreasonable arrest of the incumbent president. At the same time, don't you see traces of asking for cooperation here and there? In my opinion, the sudden resignation and police appearance include complaints, appeals, and appeals in this regard.

[Anchor]
It was also shown in the graphic, but lawyer Yoon Gap-geun and the president said it would be until he returned after completing the investigation. So it means that I didn't know that I would submit my resignation and attend. However, acting authority Choi Sang-mok quickly accepted the resignation letter. Was there a connection with this side?

[Kim Man-heum]
He's saying he submitted his resignation through his secretary. And acting Choi Sang-mok also recommended the first resignation, to reserve it. But he was so determined that he handled the resignation letter so quickly. As you know, it's a situation where we can't consider this and that in a situation where it's running in a hurry. Rather, I think it was very appropriate for the former director Park to attend and submit his resignation. There are many interpretations of this. I think that it has served as a certain buffer in a situation where we are being driven to extreme collisions with each other. You can interpret it in various ways.Ma believes that I acted as a buffer. I think we may see another opportunity later. If you didn't resign. He's the head of the department right now, but it'll be hard for the rest to act on behalf of him. If the current chief is arrested again, wouldn't the security service be destroyed even more if the current chief is arrested? So, I have that concern, and I think that I made an appropriate choice for the organization or to buffer the situation that is going into extreme conflict with each other because it is necessary to clarify one's condition later. In some ways, I think he did it at the expense of his resignation.

[Anchor]
You said you made an appropriate choice to buffer the collision. You pointed out earlier that there are various interpretations, but there are also some questions about whether there is a crack inside, but Kim Sung-hoon, deputy chief of security, is now acting. Lee Jin-ha, head of the Security and Safety Division of the Security Service, did not attend the police. What kind of airflow do you think there will be inside?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
As you said, I see it as a kind of role-sharing system. The reason why the security service exists is that there is a security target, and although the president's duties have been suspended, President Yoon Suk Yeol maintains his presidency as a protocol and is a clear security target, so there is little possibility of internal division in such a situation. The Democratic Party of Korea is talking about internal division. Representative Yoon Gun-young is floating an unknown logic because it is a letter received from an acquaintance of a bodyguard's bodyguard. The bodyguards are complaining like this. I don't think this is true. And in the case of Deputy Chief Kim Sung-hoon, he was an original guard who joined the security service as a security official for nearly 30 years and served as an important post for nearly 30 years. So, I think the responsibility and these parts will be completely different from those who entered from outside. Perhaps in that role-sharing system, he played a role in protecting the current president and defending major military and official facilities called presidential residences. So the security service is responding to a police summons on the one hand, and on the other hand, it is doing two-track responses to its mission to protect the president. This is how I look at it.

[Anchor]
I think you do your job as a security official rather than as a political part.

[Kim Man-heum]
Rather than concluding which of these is, it can be said that it is also combined. That's what the Democratic Party is saying because it's easier to see it as an internal crack. Even if it's not a crack, I don't think it's easy to stop the current situation unconditionally, as it was the first time to stop it. I think it's a kind of dragging out of an arrest warrant, but it also has that kind of dragging out of time. Aren't you trying to protect the organization? As I said earlier, the director has the nature of protecting the organization by responding to the summons and resigning, so I talk about dragging, protecting the organization, or cracking the internal cracks among the three, but I have three personalities. However, it is not weakened by internal cracks, but it is not a situation that can be prevented unconditionally as the current situation first prevented it.

[Anchor]
In the background that cannot be stopped unconditionally, the police special team is asking for a lot of support. About 1,000 people are expected, and the Criminal Investigation Unit. The Ministry of National Defense and the police both refused to increase the number of officials in the security office at a time when a large number of personnel were requested. I'm in a very isolated situation. How do you see this confrontation?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
I see it a little differently. I used to work at Cheong Wa Dae for about five years. This is the organization that defends the police 101st, 202nd, and 55th. It's not an organization that guards the presidential residence or aides. Even if the organizations actually come in, they may do nothing to defend themselves on the first line of defense, the second line of defense. I look at it like this. And because it's a military secret place, and because it's a no-fly zone, even if the police actually put investigators in, they don't get a movie-like scene, like a helicopter in the air and a novel. So, in the end, if you push in at the front gate of the official residence, it is not easy to break through if the forces that are blocking whether 1,000 people push in or 2,000 people push in. And our country's security service is the top class in the world. There are not a few competencies, prepared situations, and manpower. So, like writing a movie or a novel, 2,700 police officers are deployed outside and 1,000 people are in, so I hope that this kind of novel is not a game or a movie for the people, so I'd like to stop briefing like this. And prosecute it justly. I'll fight in court. However, don't do it by an organization that doesn't have investigative power and don't do it in a court of jurisdiction. That's how the lawyers are talking. And the Constitutional Court is saying that if the results of the trial are released, they will accept it, so can't the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit do it sophisticatedly? I really don't know why I have to do this, which disgraces the people and throws the whole country into chaos. And the National Assembly is now trying to prepare and enter each bill in relation to the Insurrection Special Prosecution Act. After the independent counsel law is passed, all investigations will be suspended, but I don't know why you're overdoing it.

[Anchor]
There are talks about the special prosecutor's right to investigate the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit, but let's talk about that later. President Yoon is in a position to prosecute as mentioned earlier. And now, we are continuing to hold outdoor public opinion contests, but we are also holding foreign press conferences. I am worried that I will achieve the purpose of martial law. How should I view martial law as a purpose when I said this?

[Kim Man-heum]
I'm a bit puzzled by those words. This time, the emergency martial law itself, which came out before, was a warning to the people that it was done to let them know that anti-state forces are now responding, but if you try to explain it, it would mean that you did it to appeal to the people. If you try to do that, you should have continued to show something convincing to the people. Above all, the country will be in a difficult situation at home and abroad after the failed emergency martial law, although it will fight judicially over impeachment and civil war. Since he is still an incumbent president, it is natural to show an attitude of infinite responsibility for this, but he continues to attack anti-state forces without such a part. In that sense, it doesn't seem appropriate to have some favorable expectations from public opinion later on. I think I got it wrong. However, some say that favorable public opinion has increased. As you know, it increased after the emergency martial law and after the impeachment of the National Assembly on December 14, but the situation has changed rather than what President Yoon did well. At that time, it's about holding the emergency martial law accountable and the impeachment accountable, and the recent reaction is to the problem of arresting the president and the civil war frame. That's why, compared to the overwhelming majority of the people at the time, the majority of the people were strongly aware of the problem, and since then, even a small number of people have disagreed on the civil war-related frame and the direct arrest of the president, so public opinion is different. That's how I interpret it.

[Anchor]
It was pointed out that public opinion may differ depending on the frame, but President Yoon's side is now claiming that it was peaceful martial law. But how effective are these arguments in shaping public opinion, in turning public opinion?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
You've said all of that now. On the part of the ongoing controversy, it is not a situation where public opinion is misled or turned right away, but as this has continued for more than a month, the defense logic is on the same axis and the impeachment logic is on the same axis, and this is a process in which the division of the public opinion becomes more concrete as support is concentrated on both sides. This is how I see it. As the chief said earlier about achieving the purpose of martial law, isn't the interpretation of the national emergency different so far? President Yoon Suk Yeol needs to find out that the Republic of Korea cannot stand properly because of the opposition party's abuse of impeachment rights, drastically cutting the government budget, shaking the administration, then impeaching prosecutors and shaking the judiciary like this, and then finding out about the part where the NEC's server is not secure and controversy and suspicions of fraudulent elections are raised. Overall, it started with the aim of correcting this extraordinary situation in order for the Republic of Korea to stand right. That's why we're talking about delivery and peaceful martial law in the sense that this purpose should be properly communicated to the people and the country should be an opportunity to stand again. However, this is actually a part that will be contested through a dispute in the court after the Constitutional Court's judgment process or the investigation by the investigative agency. In fact, it is necessary to examine whether the national constitution has become the purpose or whether it is possible to apply rebellion. I think the people are becoming cold now that they have passed the stage of emotionally feeling bad and emotionally saying no. So what's wrong is wrong. Legal violations or constitutional violations should be revealed as they are, and politically created false theories or political intentions should be revealed as intended.

[Kim Man-heum]
Since you have your own will to fight over impeachment or investigation, apart from that, isn't it that the country has come to this point by announcing an anachronistic martial law? In the world, Korea is also a representative model of successful industrialization and democratization. What is it like now? The scene of the divided public opinion is being broadcast live in foreign countries, and at least for this part, the president himself, who made the emergency martial law absurd, should take responsibility during the impeachment and the rest of the legal dispute is a matter of dispute with the Constitutional Court in the rest of the criminal trial, and if you have served as president in the meantime, I don't think you should say that you should be responsible for this part or that you haven't achieved any purpose.

[Anchor]
There are many arguments about martial law, and this part seems to have to wait a little longer for the Constitutional Court's judgment. First, let's talk about the investigation into the alleged rebellion. You mentioned the special prosecutor earlier. Acting President Choi Sang-mok said this. The ruling and opposition parties should agree to come up with an independent counsel law that is not unconstitutional. If I announce it like this, will I eventually accept it if I bring an arbitration proposal that does not have any unconstitutional elements?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
There is no way for the acting president to govern state affairs without on constitutional or legal grounds. Since authority comes from there, I first expressed my position in principle. In addition, the Democratic Party of Korea has revised some of its wrong moves, including the three-party recommendation that they have insisted on so far in the Insurrection Special Prosecutors Act, so they see that attitude as a good starting point. And didn't you say that you will present a bill on the power of the people in relation to the Special Prosecutor Act for Insurrection? So, from the standpoint of acting authority Choi Sang-mok, I think it is reasonable for the ruling and opposition parties to agree on both the timing and the atmosphere. So, this is not possible if only the political intentions of the majority of the National Assembly are carried out while proceeding with the special prosecution bill targeting the incumbent president. It's a natural demand, but the Democratic Party of Korea has violated its duty of neutrality. You're going too far.

[Anchor]
The second special prosecution bill of the Democratic Party of Korea, the government and the ruling party pointed out the toxic clause, so the recommendation has changed. What do you think about this?

[Kim Man-heum]
It is a realistic alternative to solve this problem through the special prosecutor Choi talked about. I've said this a few times. As you know, you can't reject a court-issued warrant, and if you don't follow it, you'll act in violation of the rule of law, but there's still something reluctant about it. Will the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit be able to deal with the issue of rebellion? There are problems with the contents of the warrant, and these are the problems that came up in the first place when the establishment of the Senior Civil Servant Corruption Investigations Unit or the adjustment of investigative rights was rushed too quickly. Since the problem of this system cannot be solved right away, the issue is important, so it is a desirable alternative to solve it through a special prosecutor, but the ruling and opposition parties differ on the special prosecutor issue. The Democratic Party of Korea is now saying that it has raised the issue of unconstitutionality, but has resolved the recommendation of a special prosecutor directly related to the unconstitutionality with a third party's recommendation. Therefore, it can be argued that the unconstitutionality has been removed with this problem, and the people's power is saying that only the packaging has been changed, but it seems that the unconstitutionality issue has been clearly removed. However, I can deal with all other issues related to propaganda. This problem is almost like an offshore martial law issue can be solved through a special prosecutor. Moreover, the issue of propaganda and agitation is complicated. As you know, other than those who have been arrested and charged directly with martial law, many figures and even head of the department Jeong Jin-seok are suspected of coordinating a rebellion, so it is necessary to limit the contents of the special prosecutor's order in the form of terrorist politics that came from other countries that did not exist in Korea in the past. So, the controversy over the selection of the special prosecutor has been resolved a little by a third-party special prosecutor, but since everything has recently been expanded to the martial law frame and is being brought to propaganda and instigation, I think we can create a framework for an agreement if we deal with it in a limited way.

[Anchor]
In the end, the ruling party continues to point out the scope of the investigation. Excluding foreign exchange crimes.

[Cho Cheong-rae]
As you mentioned just now, the issue of unconstitutionality, which the legislature restricts administrative authority, has been partially alleviated through three-way recommendations. If you take a closer look at the details, it is a more improved bill with more toxin provisions. We've increased the scope of our investigative power indefinitely. If you set it to 11 ranges, and if you look at the contents, there are propaganda and incitement of rebellion. There are also issues that are recognized during the investigation. Then, what is the crime of propaganda and incitement of rebellion? The Democratic Party of Korea has accused Kwon Sung-dong, floor leader, Na Kyung-won, and Yoon Sang-hyun of propaganda and incitement of rebellion. So, if you follow this special prosecutor's bill, the entire power of the people can walk in on charges of conspiracy to commit rebellion. Next, the foreign exchange crime part included a lot of unverified theories, including the problem of North Korea hitting the origin of flying a filth balloon, inducing NLLs related to flying objects. So who is this bill for? I don't understand why the Democratic Party, which was not saying anything when North Korean drones entered our no-fly zone, put this in the special prosecution bill. Period is also a problem. On the surface, I reduced it by 20 days to 150, but in reality, isn't it about 20 days to one month for the special prosecutor's preparation period and then 150 days 6 months? If we go to the early presidential election, we have a strategic idea to shake the power of the people and shake the political situation with a special prosecutor for six months. However, as you said earlier, the investigation into major workers related to the alleged rebellion by the prosecution and the police has been completed in the first place. Then, when only the president of Yoon Suk Yeol is left now, how many days do you need to argue about the president of Yoon Suk Yeol's rebellion? Since this is a really politically abused bill, the period should be shortened. I say that the investigation should be reduced to specific and verifiable parts by specifying the subject of the investigation except for foreign and security matters.

[Anchor]
So, it is known that people are preparing their own amendments within the power of the people, and the target is to limit it to six hours after the declaration of martial law. How do you see this?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
The Constitutional Court is also focusing on all four items in the six hours. The purpose of the National Constitution and the part that the investigative agency pointed out as riots related to riots are also related to the arrest of lawmakers and the blockade of the National Assembly. So, the details are focused on the activities within six hours of declaring martial law, the resolution to lift the National Assembly, and the president's announcement of lifting martial law. It is absolutely not unreasonable to focus on that. But what the Democratic Party of Korea is talking about now is how to conduct a public offering a year or six months ago. This is what it's about. It's not about leaving out the content, but you can focus on six hours and investigate the related parts, but there are politically entangled parts right now. It can be understood that the composition of the foreign exchange crime, the act of inciting civil war, or politically deriving the part where the Democratic Party is opening up should be excluded.

[Kim Man-heum]
In the case of the president's impeachment, it may be limited to a limited period because he is impeached with responsibility related to martial law, but there is a possibility that he will deal with the parts related to last year from March during the preparation period for martial law. For me, it's not a matter of timing or period for such an investigation target, but if it becomes a problem I mentioned earlier, it's a part related to the rebellion and propaganda. Propaganda is actually propaganda about what to do in the future, not a difference of opinion on what is past under the criminal law. I think there is a problem with the general public's opinion on it or driving partisan differences to propaganda. Moreover, it is said that the related part will be dealt with in terms of fake news, so I think the Democratic Party needs to see that again.

[Anchor]
I see. And in the midst of this, Kwon Sung-dong, the floor leader of the People's Power, made an official apology for the constitutional amendment at the inaugural ceremony of the Gwanhun Club. This is the second apology from the leadership following the inauguration of the emergency committee chairman, Kwon Young-se. How did you like this part?

[Cho Cheong-rae]
The question of whether emergency martial law itself meets legal requirements is controversial. There are issues with the composition of the State Council and notification to the National Assembly, and then these parts are not in line with the spirit of the times and the level of national sentiment, which surprised the people a lot. There was a ripple effect on the foreign exchange market and the financial market right away. I understand that you made a fundamental apology for that. I understand that you were talking about your determination to stabilize the state and political situation quickly by making more efforts to distribute power.

[Anchor]
And there's also a press conference organized by the National Assembly to the forces that claim to be a white bone team. The floor leader Kwon Won-dong was inappropriate for former lawmaker Kim Min. However, he said he made a mistake and apologized, so he decided that it was not a reason for disciplinary action. What else do you think about this?

[Kim Man-heum]
I don't know if floor leader Kwon Sung-dong will be so generous. However, from the public's point of view, at least from the public's point of view, the fact that Rep. Kim, who was also a professor at a university at a time when he talked about the Baekgoldan in this era, cannot help but be unaware of that. Even certain people in the general population. They are even calling for the resignation of the National Assembly. However, just because you apologized again for doing it wrong, you are too generous to pretend that it didn't happen. From the public's point of view, there is a need for some measures. That's how I see it.

[Anchor]
However, floor leader Kwon also demanded that Rep. Kim Sang-wook leave the party. Some point out that they view this standard differently.

[Cho Cheong-rae]
First of all, it was very wrong for former lawmaker Kim Min to arrange it. I think it's not enough to apologize again and again. But it's like this. In order for civic groups or outsiders to use the main gate as a press conference hall in the National Assembly, lawmakers must come forward and arrange it. Everyone in the media knows this. So, young people named Air Defense Youth Corps who are suffering in Hannam-dong want to hold a press conference, so please arrange a place for former lawmaker Kim Min. I think that's what happened. However, the term "very inappropriate white bone team" came out from there, and former lawmaker Kim Min's announcement and apology, and in the context of the post-war, I don't think former lawmaker Kim Min knew that. But that's wrong, but let's move on to the facts. In the case of Representative Kim Sang-wook, he is repeatedly pushing his position by placing the party's theory head-on. As you know well, there are also lawmakers who have organized the Democratic Party through the act. There was also a discussion about lawmaker Geum Tae-seop. Since it is against the party's current theory, shouldn't lawmaker Kwon Sung-dong go your way if your opinion is so clear? I was talking about this. In the case of former lawmaker Kim Min, did he really try to put the white bone part ahead with a sense of purpose? Or was it a simple press conference arrangement? You have to compete for the conscious purpose and active intention of the act. To do that, former lawmaker Kim Min's ethics committee. Perhaps in that sense, it seems that there is no intention, so the party leadership is doing this. If necessary, we can discuss it at the party's ethics committee.

[Anchor]
I see. We've heard Jung Kook's story up to here today. So far, we have talked with Cho Chung-rae, former vice president of the Yeouido Institute, and Kim Man-heum, former head of the National Assembly Legislative Investigation Department. Thank you for talking today.