Identifying all the victims...Attention to the cause of the disaster, 'Dundeok'

■ Host: Um Ji-min, anchor Kim Myung-geun, anchor
■ Starring: Kwon Bo-heon, professor of aviation safety management at Far East University, lawyer Kim Sung-soo,

* The text below may differ from the actual broadcast content, so please check the broadcast for more accurate information. Please specify [YTN Newswide] when quoting.

[Anchor]
On the fourth day of the Jeju Air flight disaster, all the victims were identified. The accident site investigation is also speeding up.

[Anchor]
We will talk with Kwon Bo-hyun, a professor of aviation safety management at Far East University, and Kim Sung-soo, a lawyer, about the progress of the investigation into the disaster.

[Anchor]
Welcome. Today is New Year's Day and the fourth day of the disaster. We told you earlier through a reporter's connection, but all the victims were confirmed today. How is the current progress?

[Kim Sung-soo]
As you said, all 179 victims have been identified today. And there were four people who were not confirmed until yesterday, but as the confirmation was completed today, it seems that additional progress can be made. This identification process appears to have been mostly confirmed through DNA testing, and isn't there the bodies of the people who left?

In the case of this body, 11 minutes were delivered to the bereaved families, and some of them are holding funerals. And although 179 people have been cured, there may be facts about investigating the cause of the remains or the site, so the investigation is still ongoing and some investigations are expected to proceed a little further.

[Anchor]
There are also many comforting hands for the bereaved families who are deeply saddened across the country. Who is the main body of support for the bereaved families and how is it currently being provided?

[Kim Sung-soo]
First of all, I think there are a lot of support. First of all, the government and local governments seem to be providing related support, and airlines and Jeju Air also said they would provide support, so they are considering various supports.

In addition, civic groups and volunteer organizations across the country are also making efforts to support the bereaved families through volunteer activities, so there are various support situations, and recently, the Ministry of Justice has also said that such legal support will be provided, so I think I can tell you that there are various support areas.

[Anchor]
An on-site accident investigation to determine the cause of the disaster has also begun in earnest. Overseas aviation safety experts are paying attention to azimuth facilities on the outskirts of the runway as the cause of the disaster. Let's listen to the related voices first.

[John Cox / Aviation Safety Consultant] If it hadn't hit a concrete hill, the plane would have stopped, and people would have been able to get off the plane. Why the hell was the concrete structure there? ]

[David Rearmount / Aviation Safety Specialist: The pilot's failure to unload the flap and landing gear for landing was not actually the cause of the passenger's death. Passengers were killed when they hit a hard structure. ]

[Anchor] As you've heard, there's been a lot of criticism about this concrete hill, what exactly is the role of this concrete hill?

[Recommendation]
The concrete mound serves as a support stand for the equipment that the aircraft uses for landing, called a localizer.

[Anchor]
One of the problems pointed out was that the distance from the localizer to the end of the runway was too short. But wasn't the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport in the position that there was no problem with the regulations? What is the position of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport?

[Recommendation]
I understood that the position of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport changed a little yesterday. In fact, since there are cases where the aircraft sometimes deviates from the end of the runway, there are two requirements and recommendations that international organizations must make to secure safe areas. When this Muan International Airport was created, the ICAO International Civil Aviation Organization recommended 150 meters.

So there was no problem when this actual Muan Airport opened. But this is too short depending on the international organization as the aircraft develops and grows larger. So, I recommend 300m, and I made a recommendation like this. Accordingly, Korea also lowered it to 300m according to the standard for taking off and landing sites for airport airfield facilities.

However, at this Muan airport now, it will not be improved. So even now, we meet the basic minimum required by ICAO, but we do not meet the 300m required by FA or domestic regulations, I can tell you this.

[Anchor]
As you said, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport changed its position a little after additional detailed regulations came out. According to the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport's airport take-off and landing sites covered by our YTN, the longitudinal safety zone should be extended to the point where the localizer is installed.

[Recommendation]
That's right. Localizer equipment is made of very thin aluminum or such structures. So these structures don't get damaged if the aircraft hits them, but the most dangerous thing is the mudslides that were supporting them, and the concrete that was on them.

So the localizer allows us to install within the safe zone. The only condition is that it should be such a structure that does not break easily or damage the aircraft.

[Anchor]
And there were similar contents in the detailed airport design guidelines, but the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport was not aware of these contents?

[Kwon Bo-hyeon]
It is understood that these problems have already been recognized. The Muan Airport Security Corporation and the second construction have already included the intention to review these contents, so the document is written. And it came out in 2022 based on the establishment of airport airfield facilities, and this has already been reflected in domestic regulations to make it 300m.

[Anchor]
And isn't the shape of the support also controversial? It was raised by stacking two to three meters of mud on a concrete support, and local risers, in other words, azimuth facilities, were protruding over the mud, but it was pointed out that it was against the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport's manual.

[Recommendation]
Runways are usually considered flat ground by us. In fact, Incheon Airport is all flat. There is no problem if it is parallel to the other end of the runway, but when Muan Airport was designed, it was not possible to create a flatland and it is 5.6 meters high on one side. Therefore, in order to receive signals from this localizer antenna, we have to increase the localizer on some sides of the runway.

As a result, the same-sized localizer facility was raised to raise the soil. If this localizer pole was raised, it is judged that such an accident would not have occurred.

[Anchor]
Even if it was taken into consideration to match the height of the airport, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport's manual says that the antenna foundation should be at the same height as the ground and that a soft ground should be selected as a support, but concrete is quite hard.

[Recommendation]
[Voiceover] That's right. So you have to make it the same height as the surface and raise the pole, but you don't raise the pole and you've made the mound. This will be a part that goes against the facility standards.

[Anchor]
Because of this, many people are feeling a lot of regret that they might have been able to reduce the damage if they didn't have blunt instruments. What do you think?

[Recommendation]
I have a question about that. The reason is that there was a wall right behind the runway. The outer wall of the runway is also made of bricks, and it is only necessary to conduct a professional experiment to find out how different it is from hitting a blunt object when hitting the brick. Even if there is a blunt object outside 300 meters, even if there is a blunt object claimed by the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport, the damage to the plane would have been significant.

Of course, it would have caused more damage because it is now about 48 meters ahead, but even if this was outside the safety zone, it is believed that it would have caused great damage to the plane.

[Anchor]
Then professor, you're an aviation safety expert. From an expert's point of view, there is a concern that the same thing will happen again in the future when such a similar accident occurs, whether this blunt object can be left as it is.

[Recommendation]
This hillside is a part that must be eliminated, and in the case of Muan Airport, the actual outer wall is very close. It'll be a little more than 300 meters. So, for this part, if the area is large, it will not be a problem, but in the case of a narrow area, it is judged that EMAS should be installed to have a facility that can sufficiently slow the plane.

[Anchor]
According to foreign media, there is also an opinion that the structure should be brittle. If there was no concrete, wouldn't it be okay to have a mound?

[Recommendation]
It depends on how hard the soil is. But doesn't the soil harden when it's rained on? However, the height should be 7.5cm, almost the same as the floor, but this part of the hill actually needs to be cut, and on the other hand, the reason for this accident was that the aircraft was lower because the landing gear did not come out. Therefore, it is judged that the impact of the collision was greater.

[Anchor]
The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport has taken a step back from saying that there is no problem with the regulations, but it means that it will look at the regulations again. If we admit that the regulations have been violated, I think the scope of responsibility will change from then on. What do you think?

[Kim Sung-soo]
It is important to specify facts because the scope of responsibility can also vary depending on how they are specified. But isn't there a lot of discussion about how the accident occurred on the plane and how it crashed into a blunt during the landing, and how the damage spread in this area? Therefore, even if there was a violation of the regulations and there was a part that caused more damage, the scope of responsibility for this may be different.

[Anchor]
If it is judged that the localizer of Muan Airport is against the standard, the impact will be quite large.

[Kim Sung-soo]
First of all, when legal responsibility is considered, the percentage of negligence is determined for civil liability. Therefore, depending on the ratio, it seems that the government or the installer may be responsible for the violation of the regulation, and if there is a sanction regulation for the violation of the regulation, there will be a comprehensive legal review of that part because sanctions are possible under the sanctions regulation, but it is not clear what caused the current facts and whether they have spread. Therefore, I think there will be a part that needs some scientific verification on that part as well.

[Anchor]
Professor, if you look at airports in Korea, there are some airports where local risers are located in Dundeok other than Muan. Then, if it is judged that this standard itself is a problem, shouldn't the provider or future measures be taken?

[Recommendation]
Even before the accident investigation is over, if there is a safety problem, it is aviation safety that needs to be taken immediately. The airport is also operated by civil aircraft, so if any problems are found during this accident investigation, there are parts that need to be immediately taken care of and if there are parts that need to be taken slowly, this is the kind of situation that needs to be taken care of.

[Anchor]
The International Civil Aviation Organization ICAO mentioned earlier, but the ICAO said that this hill should not be installed within 300m at the end of the runway, hasn't it been revealed this standard?

[Recommendation]
ICAO has two criteria. The standard that must be done in the Require standard, that would be 150m, then the recommended standard would be 300m.

[Anchor]
Then, among Korean airports, Pohang Gyeongju Airport is 152m, Sacheon Airport is 182m, and Ulsan Airport is 260m. Is there any possibility of change in this area as well?

[Recommendation]
This part will need to be secured more, and if it is insufficient, the localizer equipment can be installed inside it. However, as you said, as long as it is a structure that does not damage the aircraft, there will be no major problems.

[Anchor]
And let's talk about the gas problem. The landing gear is believed to have gone down normally when attempting the first landing. There are also witnesses who say that. There are pictures coming out, too. But the problem after that was that the landing gear didn't work during the second attempt. And the engine and flap didn't move, so I think we need to find out the problems between the first and second landings. What do you think?

[Recommendation]
It is believed that that will be the key point of this accident investigation. It is determined that the aircraft has approached normally because the pilot is supposed to report to the control tower as soon as an abnormal situation occurs. However, there was no report at all from the control tower until the first round. That's why, in my estimation, there was no problem with this aircraft at all.

[Anchor]
Professor, but if you came down to the landing gear during the first landing attempt, why did you repeat it again?

[Recommendation]
If you see it here, the control tower has issued a bird collision alert to the pilot. I would have said in English, "Be careful because there is a tide in front of you." It is believed that the pilot also found the bird at the same time. That's how the algae were probably in the front or nearby. So the only way a pilot avoids it is to rise.

In abnormal or emergency situations, birds are supposed to avoid downward. So the pilot went upward to avoid it. Isn't it possible to crash to the ground if the plane comes down from a very low place? So the pilot took the climb in the best way and would have picked up the gear in the process.

Since it is done according to the procedure, it is judged that the right and left engines were damaged by colliding with the tide in the process of going up. So the pilot made a Mayday call and talked about Bird Strike. So the aircraft is on alert, and the reason is that it's a bird collision.

In the case of the right engine, as you may have seen in the video, there is a lot of smoke and weak smoke on the left, so it seems that there were many collisions of two or more birds on the right engine, and about one on the left, so it seems that the damage to the right engine is large.

[Anchor]
But after the captain shouted Bird Strike, he declared May Day, and suddenly the control tower said that there was a communication problem. What are the situations where communication with the control tower is cut off?

[Recommendation]
Communication is similar to our mobile phone, like a walkie-talkie. The power is supplied with battery and AC power. This alternating current power is supplied by the generator from the engine, which basically means that the transmission of the length sitting on the left is connected to the battery and the situation on the right is received by the generator by default.

So in this case, the general communication is supposed to be done by the bookkeeper. However, if the communication is cut off, the power supplied to the bookkeeping side may have been cut off, and if the power is cut off, both engines have stopped functioning.

[Anchor]
Then, is there a possibility that there is a problem with the electrical system?

[Kwon Bo-hyeon]
Yes, the problem of the electrical system is not a problem of the system itself, but it can be seen as a state in which power is not supplied due to the engine stopping driving.

[Anchor]
Also, one of the stories from the foreign media was that the pilot had some control when he saw the plane landing on the runway. It is pointed out that Mayday was declared, but it was controlled because it entered the runway accurately, but it could have been stopped safely without the structure. Then, there may have been problems in the communication process, but the pilot's judgment was correct, and all possible measures were done, do you see it like this?

[Recommendation]
We believe that the best action has been taken as a pilot. If one engine had a little thrust, the pilot would have used the zero-one runway that he was trying to get off normally. Because that's the runway we're using now. But it's very urgent if the pilot goes down the other runway, turns around, turns 180 degrees. Because it was not possible to fly like this, he decided to get off the runway as soon as possible and did it at his own judgment.

That's why I got off by doing a one-way bag, but many people talk about why I didn't set the ground point, or if the aircraft stops two engines, both the hydraulic and electrical systems will stop. So the only thing a pilot can do is gliding.

As a result, there is only a fuselage landing. The equipment itself, called spoilers that can slow down again without crawling down and flaps of high-lift devices that can slow down, stops.

[Anchor]
Until now, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport has been cautious about acknowledging the connection between engine failure and landing gear problems, but yesterday, it was the first time that the two could be related.

[Recommendation]
Since this part is a systematic part, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport is not in charge of the system, is it? Since certain facilities, procedures, and regulations are considered, Boeing also came in this time, so it is believed that they probably gave advice systematically.

[Anchor]
Also, wasn't the bird collision the primary cause of this accident? It is said that migratory birds are frequently moving around the airport, but it has been confirmed that there is no bird detection radar at the domestic airport.

[Recommendation]
In the case of bird detection radars, you can check all bird movements and migratory birds, but Muan Airport currently does not have many passengers, and the conditions and airport specifications that can detect birds and give information to aircraft do not fit.

[Anchor]
As Professor Kwon said, which side should be responsible for the lack of relevant regulations, even though we can recognize that currents can be a dangerous factor?

[Kim Sung-soo]
If there is no regulation rather than taking responsibility, I think we should make that regulation this time to prevent such accidents from occurring in the future. But isn't it possible that the law makers don't have this knowledge about how far this part is realistically possible? That's why I think we should make such a concrete plan through a lot of advice from experts.

[Anchor]
Professor, if you could give specific advice from an expert's point of view, what would it be?

[Recommendation]
According to the current international regulations and regulations made by Korea, we need to quickly remove such obstacles and improve equipment that can be damaged by hitting them with the latest equipment. And these regulations themselves do not guarantee all safety.

So, in order for us to secure safety beyond regulations, we need to do various studies and then check whether there are any problems through simulation once again.

[Anchor]
On the other hand, didn't the same model return to the landing gear problem at dawn the day before yesterday? In this regard, we can suspect a device problem, so what do you think?

[Recommendation]
Aircraft equipment can break down today at any time, even after yesterday's inspection. So, even if it's broken, it's important to know how much the pilot took to restore it to normal, so in this case, the pilot operated the device normally, but it's unstable, so it's judged that he returned to the airport and replaced the plane.

[Anchor]
It's true that many people actually have anxiety about Boeing aircraft. It is known that there are 110 units of this model in Korea, but the acting president Choi Sang-mok received a special safety inspection. Which part do you look at?

[Kim Sung-soo]
First of all, as you mentioned in this part, it is a B737-800 plane manufactured by Boeing in the United States. In this regard, six companies, including Jeju Air, Korean Air, Jin Air, T-Way, Eastar, and Air Incheon, have a total of 101 units. In this regard, it is said that we are planning to conduct a complete inspection of the aircraft maintenance history and flight maintenance records and check the aircraft operation system such as pilot training, training status, and abnormal status reporting systems. First of all, I can tell you that this is not only in Korea, but there are a lot of planes worldwide.

Then, there will be things like that overseas, where this model breaks down a lot, or there may be defects in some areas. Then, I think it would be good to check those parts together and take care of those parts carefully so that such accidents do not occur in the future.

[Anchor]
If such a thorough investigation reveals that there is a problem with the Boeing 737-800, then what additional measures should be taken?

[Kim Sung-soo]
If that part is found to have defects that make it impossible to operate, I think it is possible to consider measures to ban the use of this model in Korea. However, as I said, this is a model that is used a lot internationally.

Therefore, it will be necessary to see if defects will be found to that extent, and as I said earlier, no cases have been found in Korea, but in overseas cases, this model continues to have defects, so it would be good to check those areas carefully.

[Anchor]
On the other hand, there are 11 domestic accident investigators and eight U.S. joint investigators are investigating the accident site. What procedures will you go through in the future?

[Recommendation]
The National Railroad Accident Investigation Committee will be the subject of this accident, and the U.S. NTSB and Boeing will advise as participating organizations. All of these are investigated by state agencies, so the investigation will be the first to collect data.

It takes quite a long time to collect data by taking pictures and collecting various items and everything at Muan Airport, where the accident occurred. You have to collect everything and record all the places that are far away.

In that way, when you investigate accidents later, you have to collect data and store the data precisely because you do all these things to see where and how it has affected you. It should be marked so that it is not damaged and stored individually, and after that, human factors will be investigated.

The pilots have passed away, but all these things are about whether their training has been done normally and whether their physical examination has been done normally. And we'll investigate all the maintenance history as well. Then, the aircraft engine and such parts are scrutinized. And then one side investigates the witnesses as well.

Other than that, don't you recall aircraft, characteristics, or things like this, if our car has a problem? We should also investigate all of those records, conduct a very extensive investigation, and the most important thing is to investigate data, CVR, and DVT. It takes a considerable amount of time to analyze this.

It is judged that it will take some time for both to be found and matched by time, and likewise, to be confirmed in three dimensions by matching the records of the control tower and the pilot's communication.

[Anchor]
I see. We've just talked about the Jeju Air passenger plane disaster with the two of you. First, Professor Kwon Bo-heon will send it here, and in a moment, lawyer Kim Sung-soo will point out a little more about the issuance of an arrest warrant for President Yoon Suk Yeol. Thank you, professor.